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Since all I6 are the same internally, it's probably safe to say a software flash can bring the cheaper version to same level of the higher HP one?

1637 Views 23 Replies 9 Participants Last post by  Blknblue
The lower HP trims might be a great value knowing one day a simple flash could bring the power up.

Car and Driver released an article today, they included psi for the turbos:
2024 Mazda CX-90 Reaches for Luxe (caranddriver.com)
CX-90s come in three models: Turbo, Turbo S, and PHEV (plug-in hybrid). The first two are powered by an engine that helps the CX-90 feel like the real deal: a 3.3-liter turbocharged inline-six with a 48-volt, 17-hp hybrid-assist system. A 280-hp version of the engine with 332-pound feet of torque powers the Turbo; this version runs on regular fuel. A 340-hp version of the six making 369 pound-feet of torque on premium fuel motivates the Turbo S. Both engines' internals are identical; Mazda turns up the boost on the more powerful variant by roughly 5 psi to about 19 psi and adjusts other engine parameters to take advantage of higher-octane fuel. The plug-in hybrid mates a 189-hp 2.5-liter turbo four with a 173-hp electric motor for a combined 323 horsepower and 369 pound-feet of torque, also on premium fuel.
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Hey @redturbo welcome to the the forum! It does seem like a possibility since the internals are the same. I've never tried to flash tune a Mazda before so I'm not sure how easy/hard it is to do. Would you consider doing it with your CX-90?
Definitely possible , but may not worth the consequence (OTA devices built-in) that might void your warranty.
Hey @redturbo welcome to the the forum! It does seem like a possibility since the internals are the same. I've never tried to flash tune a Mazda before so I'm not sure how easy/hard it is to do. Would you consider doing it with your CX-90?
absolutely, especially if they have a way to flash back to stock for warranty work

Hondas were getting away with it flashing back to stock if warranty work came up but I believe one manufacturer caught on and was able to see--might have been subaru. But they are knonw to be cars that are modified. Doubt mazda will with an suv. Those were WRXs, STi's which are common to be modified.
It can't be an easy flash given the premium charged for the higher output engine.
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So after doing some digging on parts diagrams, I found a hardware variation within 3.3L designators.

A optionality with a secondary radiator that cools the water that feeds the air-to-water intercooler that the new I6 platform uses. I suspect this equipment is on the Turbo S models, to provide a cooler intake charge to deal with the higher heat output from the higher output tuning. Without the sub-radiator, the intercooler is simply fed from the main radiator. The sub-radiator also contains a secondary water pump to cycle its closed water loop through the intercooler.

My theory is this is at least one hardware difference between the two engine variations. There doesn't appear to be any variations in the short block/long block or transmission though.

So while theoretically the base engine could be tuned up the S output, it likely will need that additional cooling to keep things safe.

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So after doing some digging on parts diagrams, I found a hardware variation within 3.3L designators. A optionality with a secondary radiator that cools the water that feeds the air-to-water intercooler that the new I6 platform uses. I suspect this equipment is on the Turbo S models, to provide a cooler intake charge to deal with the higher heat output from the higher output tuning. Without the sub-radiator, the intercooler is simply fed from the main radiator. The sub-radiator also contains a secondary water pump to cycle its closed water loop through the intercooler. My theory is this is at least one hardware difference between the two engine variations. There doesn't appear to be any variations in the short block/long block or transmission though. So while theoretically the base engine could be tuned up the S output, it likely will need that additional cooling to keep things safe.
Thanks for the info. Though it is possible the difference is Turbo vs Turbo S, I think it's more likely to be part of the extra towing capacity on certain trims. i.e., it's needed to have 5000lb rated towing capacity.
Thanks for the info. Though it is possible the difference is Turbo vs Turbo S, I think it's more likely to be part of the extra towing capacity on certain trims. i.e., it's needed to have 5000lb rated towing capacity.
There is no way they would run radiator fluid at 200 degrees thru the air to water intercooler, you would get way to much detonation. Ambiant air to air is way better than this. The purpose of air to water is for a cooler charge than air to air and also delay heat soak.
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Thanks for the info. Though it is possible the difference is Turbo vs Turbo S, I think it's more likely to be part of the extra towing capacity on certain trims. i.e., it's needed to have 5000lb rated towing capacity.
So this only exists on 3.3L, the 2.5L (PHEV) has a completely separate parts bin (the PHEV has the lower towing capacity). As I thought all 3.3L had the same towing capacity.

There is no way they would run radiator fluid at 200 degrees thru the air to water intercooler, you would get way to much detonation. Ambiant air to air is way better than this. The purpose of air to water is for a cooler charge than air to air and also delay heat soak.
The 3.3L does have an air-to-water intercooler, it sits tucked underneath the intake manifold. ECT (what is displayed on your dash) is the temp of coolant as its leaving the engine to be cooled. So that water will be cooled by both the main radiator, then the sub-radiator, before making its way to the A2W intercooler, or simply just the main radiator in the non-S config. The diagrams are a bit hard to follow, but there is a connection between the main radiator and the sub-radiator, but appears to be on the cold side main radiator.

A ballpark figure of 35% heat exchange requirement for modern automotive radiators puts post cooling temps at ~130F from 200F. Put that through another cooler and you can probably get much closer to ambient air, but even being very conservative, assuming a lower heat exchange rate on the secondary cooler of say 20% puts you at 105F (lower ambient temps will make this second exchange significantly more efficient, but there are diminishing returns). Manifold air temps post air-to-air intercoolers can easily exceed 130F during persistent load, even aftermarket cores. The air-to-water core has less reliance on air flow, and is thus harder to heat soak.

While you are not wrong that putting 200F coolant through an air-to-water intercooler would cause detonation, its just not what is happening in practice. The turbo charge pipe goes straight across COP #4 back into the firewall area to the throttle body then the A2W intercooler.

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So this only exists on 3.3L, the 2.5L (PHEV) has a completely separate parts bin (the PHEV has the lower towing capacity).



The 3.3L does have an air-to-water intercooler, it sits tucked underneath the intake manifold. ECT (what is displayed on your dash) is the temp of coolant as its leaving the engine to be cooled. So that water will be cooled by both the main radiator, then the sub-radiator, before making its way to the A2W intercooler, or simply just the main radiator in the non-S config. The diagrams are a bit hard to follow, but there is a connection between the main radiator and the sub-radiator, but appears to be on the cold side main radiator.

A ballpark figure of 35% heat exchange requirement for modern automotive radiators puts post cooling temps at ~130F from 200F. Put that through another cooler and you can probably get much closer to ambient air, but even being very conservative, assuming a lower heat exchange rate on the secondary cooler of say 20% puts you at 105F (lower ambient temps will make this second exchange significantly more efficient, but there are diminishing returns). Manifold air temps post air-to-air intercoolers can easily exceed 130F during persistent load, even aftermarket cores. The air-to-water core has less reliance on air flow, and is thus harder to heat soak.

While you are not wrong that putting 200F coolant through an air-to-water intercooler would cause detonation, its just not what is happening in practice.
If you look up post radiator temps they are between 160 and 190 degrees, depending on load. Using your 20% loss for the secondary radiator, you are between 128 and 152 degrees, way more than ambient. Think about in the winter, there will be no power or effciency gains since your still running the air thru 128 degrees plus. I own a BMW 340i and it has a air to water intercooler that is a seperate system and radiator.
165/200 temps are not post radiator, those are engine coolant temps, or temps behind the thermostat. If you were running post radiator temps of 160/190F that would translate to engine coolant temps of 215/270.

But I digress, these cars do not have an air to air intercooler, and the parts diagram for the 3.3L makes designations for with and without sub-radiator. But it does appear that there are lower trim lower output motors with lower towing limits, so maybe it is a function of towing capacity and not power.
Just do a google search on post radiator temps.
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To recap - 3.3L uses an air-to-water intercooler, and per the diagrams above, the sub-radiator is connected to the main radiator.

But there are many things that aren't well labeled/connected per parts diagrams. It is likely that the main radiator is actually a two core radiator 1 core for engine coolant, 2nd core for transmission coolant. And the additional sub-radiator is for the transmission side loop, and it is this loop that feeds the A2W intercooler and the transmission. I am not convinced of this, because you typically cool transmission fluid directly in dual core radiators, but with how new this all is its hard to say.

Edit: I think I have somewhat figured it out, the transmission cooling is cooling a voltage converter and some other high voltage components on the transmission, but it still appears to share a common overflow with the main radiator. The only connection I cant actually verify is the other end of the sub-radiator (15-1J0 no. 3) in the diagrams, as 15-200 (no. 1 ) is the generic part id for the main radiator...

It doesn't look like this cooling loop is for the transmission fluid, I am guessing that is a separate cooler. This scenario may or may not explain the two lowest trim levels of the non-S having a lower towing capacity, making the radiator simply a function of towing capacity not power. If this were the case, then turbo preferred plus and up may be identical mechanically.

As far as ECTs go, display gauges and idiot lights are usually for coolant leaving the engine. You do not typically see your temp gauge jump from ambient to operating temp in a very short amount of time when the thermostat opens up, but I am speaking generically. You wouldn't want your primary coolant temp ECU input post radiator / pre-engine as a safety precaution, its a lagged indicator at that point. You want the best measurement of heat coming out of the engine, or the temp of coolant as it leaves the engine. So the operating temperature target of around 190F is the steady state temp of your coolant as it leaves the engine.

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To recap - 3.3L uses an air-to-water intercooler, and per the diagrams above, the sub-radiator is connected to the main radiator.

But there are many things that aren't well labeled/connected per parts diagrams. It is likely that the main radiator is actually a two core radiator 1 core for engine coolant, 2nd core for transmission coolant. And the additional sub-radiator is for the transmission side loop, and it is this loop that feeds the A2W intercooler and the transmission.

This scenario would explain the two lowest trim levels of the non-S having a lower towing capacity, making the radiator simply a function towing capacity not power. If this were the case, then turbo preferred plus and up may be identical mechanically.

As far as ECTs go, display gauges and idiot lights are usually for coolant leaving the engine. You do not typically see your temp gauge jump from ambient to operating temp in a very short amount of time when the thermostat opens up, but I am speaking generically. You wouldn't want your primary coolant temp ECU input post radiator / pre-engine as a safety precaution, its a lagged indicator at that point. You want the best measurement of heat coming out of the engine, or the temp of coolant as it leaves the engine. So the operating temperature target of around 190F is the steady state temp of your coolant as it leaves the engine.
Thanks for the digging! Now we just wait for an aftermarket tuning company to add some boost and spark to the tables before we roll race the X5's in turbo non-s!
What we need to do is make friends with a service manager and get our hands on the service manuals when they come out. Many parts diagrams are labeled incomplete so its likely that stuff isn't in circulation yet.
To recap - 3.3L uses an air-to-water intercooler, and per the diagrams above, the sub-radiator is connected to the main radiator.

But there are many things that aren't well labeled/connected per parts diagrams. It is likely that the main radiator is actually a two core radiator 1 core for engine coolant, 2nd core for transmission coolant. And the additional sub-radiator is for the transmission side loop, and it is this loop that feeds the A2W intercooler and the transmission. I am not convinced of this, because you typically cool transmission fluid directly in dual core radiators, but with how new this all is its hard to say.

Edit: I think I have somewhat figured it out, the transmission cooling is cooling a voltage converter and some other high voltage components on the transmission, but it still appears to share a common overflow with the main radiator. The only connection I cant actually verify is the other end of the sub-radiator (15-1J0 no. 3) in the diagrams, as 15-200 (no. 1 ) is the generic part id for the main radiator...

It doesn't look like this cooling loop is for the transmission fluid, I am guessing that is a separate cooler. This scenario may or may not explain the two lowest trim levels of the non-S having a lower towing capacity, making the radiator simply a function of towing capacity not power. If this were the case, then turbo preferred plus and up may be identical mechanically.

As far as ECTs go, display gauges and idiot lights are usually for coolant leaving the engine. You do not typically see your temp gauge jump from ambient to operating temp in a very short amount of time when the thermostat opens up, but I am speaking generically. You wouldn't want your primary coolant temp ECU input post radiator / pre-engine as a safety precaution, its a lagged indicator at that point. You want the best measurement of heat coming out of the engine, or the temp of coolant as it leaves the engine. So the operating temperature target of around 190F is the steady state temp of your coolant as it leaves the engine.
Makes sense.
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Ah, did anyone happen to check the specs? Subradiator appears to be towing related & Intercooler listed as a separate capacity/system which is the same between Standard vs Turbo S.

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Ah, did anyone happen to check the specs? Subradiator appears to be towing related & Intercooler listed as a separate capacity/system which is the same between Standard vs Turbo S.

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Awesome find, where did you find these tables? I have been looking for oil capacity for some time lol

Interesting that the second table lists it as separated based on power output, but the first table clearly lists it based on towing capacity.

They also are marking the A2W as a low temp loop, so the radiator likely is a multi core radiator. One potential mod will be somehow expanding the cooling on the A2W loop cooler.

Seeing this though, I think I have figured out where I got my wires crosses on the parts diagrams. The diagram with the main radiator does show a line in the middle for the two cores, lower section appears to be the A2W cooler.
A2W loop has its own reservoir that feeds the cooler, great opportunity to build an aftermarket reservoir/chiller tank combo. Also would probably want to put additional cooling pre-reservoir, since the low temp core is still getting some heat transfer from the high temp core (putting additional cooling before the primary radiator wouldn't be as efficient potentially).

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Top table is from the "Spec Deck" download, 13 pgs with every feature for every trim in tabular format. Use to be on MazdaUSA, but here is a direct link to pdf:

2024 MAZDA CX-90 https://filecache.mediaroom.com/mr5mr_mazdausa2/222675/download/24MY CX-90 Spec Deck_2.24.23.pdf

2nd table is in Owners Manual pg 10-65
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