This has always been a confusing point to me with PHV in general. Maybe the question is, can the engine keep the battery charged during non-stop road trips, or will you need to charge as you stop to keep up the 56 MPGe. The battery depleted figure makes sense, as you have additional weight and drive train losses associated with PHEV system. The fact you can get to battery depleted makes it sound like the engine cannot range extend the battery / EV mode.
PHEV real world gas mileage
I am having a problem with all the tests claiming that the PHEV will get a combined mpg figure of 25 with the battery depleted and 56 MPGe. First of all, why would you ever have a completely depleted battery short of a long highway trip with no braking? This does have regenerative braking, correct? My understanding is it will alway have 10% charge, even if it uses the gas engine to maintain that, so that you always have the full 323 hp when needed. So, with the battery always available like a normal hybrid, but not fully charged (and basically driving like an EV), what should the average combined mpg be? No way, should it be 25 mpg. If the Highlander with a 2.5 gas engine gets 35+ I would expect the CX90 to be closer to that figure. In normal mode, it should cycle between gas and EV mode like any hybrid since it is a normal hybrid, just with a much larger battery. Am I missing something? Maybe I don't fully understand what MPGe is? What I believe it is is an equivalent measure of how far a vehicle can travel on one gallon of gasoline. Which doesn't mean too much. Basically, with full charge, you get about 25 miles from battery plus 25 more miles with a gallon of gas so thats about 50. If MPGe really means the comparable mpg for a full tank than I would be happy with 56 but I don't think it does. Longer tests of the CX60 PHEV are usually claimng 35-45 mpg combined with daily charging. That makes sense compared to a Highlander since the CX90 doesn't have the soul crushing CVT and considerably more power. Am I missing something?
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This has always been a confusing point to me with PHV in general. Maybe the question is, can the engine keep the battery charged during non-stop road trips, or will you need to charge as you stop to keep up the 56 MPGe. The battery depleted figure makes sense, as you have additional weight and drive train losses associated with PHEV system. The fact you can get to battery depleted makes it sound like the engine cannot range extend the battery / EV mode.
Maybe it is a electric motor only and not a motor/generator like most hybrids.
Mazda built this PHEV on its own. Toyota has been making hybrids forever. They're the gold standard, so of course they're going to be more efficient. The Highlander Hybrid is a FWD biased AWD that's on a van's platform and weighs 600-900 lbs less than the CX-90. Of course it's going to be more efficient. The CX-90 is a RWD biased AWD performance vehicle with ~60 more HP and lbs of torque. Just moving the bias from FWD to RWD is going to knock off some efficiency. The 2023 BMW X5 xDrive45e MPGe is 50.
I don't expect the CX-90 to match the Highlander. I really don't even see them as direct competitors with the Highlander being much more of a boring family mover and the CX-90 being way more of a drivers vehicle with the ability to use as a family vehicle as needed. But, from an engine standpoint only, it is way more similar to the Highlander than the BMW X5 xdrive45e. Highlander and CX-90 both have a 2.5 l 4 cylinder where the BMW has a turbocharged 3.0 straight 6 (with a 53-60 all electric range). While the CX-90 and X5 may be more similar vehicles in terms of driving dynamics their engines are very different and yet the CX-90 is much closer to the gas mileage of the BMW than the Highlander. I hate the Highlander CVT and boring ride but 30% more gas mileage seems off. It wouldn't bother me as much if the CX-90 had an electric range closer to the X5 because I would only use the gas engine on longer trips but it has less than half the range so I would often be getting only 25 mpg. It just seems really low for a modern hybrid even if it's Mazda's first reall attempt. It's even more disappointing with Toyota owning 5.1% of Mazda and co-owning a manufacturing plant (and co-developing vehicles). I would kill for the CX-90 with a RAV4 prime engine but turbocharged. I'm still buying the CX-90 but I will likely be buying another in 5+ years and I expect it to be a much better vehicle then.Mazda built this PHEV on its own. Toyota has been making hybrids forever. They're the gold standard, so of course they're going to be more efficient. The Highlander Hybrid is a FWD biased AWD that's on a van's platform and weighs 600-900 lbs less than the CX-90. Of course it's going to be more efficient. The CX-90 is a RWD biased AWD performance vehicle with ~60 more HP and lbs of torque. Just moving the bias from FWD to RWD is going to knock off some efficiency. The 2023 BMW X5 xDrive45e MPGe is 50.
From an architecture standpoint, it's my understanding that the CX-90 is actually more similar to the X5 than the Highlander. In most hybrid mainstream vehicles--including Toyota--the electric motor is able to apply power to the drive wheels more directly. In the case of the AWD systems in the Highlander, RAV4, and Sienna, the rear axle has its own electric motor going through a reduction gear instead of an entire transmission. On the other hand, with the CX-90 and BMW PHEVs, the electric motor is sandwiched between the ICE engine and the transmission. There are many dynamic benefits to this, but the negative side is that the transmission and driveline will compromise efficiency, regardless of which power source is active at the time (since the torque from both the electric motor and ICE engine has to go through the transmission to reach the drive wheels).I don't expect the CX-90 to match the Highlander. I really don't even see them as direct competitors with the Highlander being much more of a boring family mover and the CX-90 being way more of a drivers vehicle with the ability to use as a family vehicle as needed. But, from an engine standpoint only, it is way more similar to the Highlander than the BMW X5 xdrive45e. Highlander and CX-90 both have a 2.5 l 4 cylinder where the BMW has a turbocharged 3.0 straight 6 (with a 53-60 all electric range). While the CX-90 and X5 may be more similar vehicles in terms of driving dynamics their engines are very different and yet the CX-90 is much closer to the gas mileage of the BMW than the Highlander. I hate the Highlander CVT and boring ride but 30% more gas mileage seems off. It wouldn't bother me as much if the CX-90 had an electric range closer to the X5 because I would only use the gas engine on longer trips but it has less than half the range so I would often be getting only 25 mpg. It just seems really low for a modern hybrid even if it's Mazda's first reall attempt. It's even more disappointing with Toyota owning 5.1% of Mazda and co-owning a manufacturing plant (and co-developing vehicles). I would kill for the CX-90 with a RAV4 prime engine but turbocharged. I'm still buying the CX-90 but I will likely be buying another in 5+ years and I expect it to be a much better vehicle then.
I've noticed this when switching from a pure EV (Mustang Mach E) to a BMW 530e RWD PHEV. The Mach E is far heavier (+600 pounds) and more powerful with two electric motors driving all four wheels versus the RWD for the 530e, but its mi/kwh efficiency is much better: 3.7 for the MME, 2.4-2.5 for the 530e (in EV mode) so far.
If I am going somewhere that will exceed my EV range in the 530e (which is 16 miles) and I know I won't be able to charge for the return trip, I tend to switch to regular hybrid mode instead of EV mode, letting the car decide which power source to use along the way. It heavily favors the electric motor in normal driving. Yes, I end up using some gas this way, but it's a miniscule amount compared to ICE for the entire trip.
If the CX-90 delivers mid 20s range, I would probably almost never use gas during daily commuting. I just hope I find one with the right seating arrangement and features at the right price. Very frustrating, how Mazda mixes, matches, and limits all that.
Maybe a better question for me to be asking is what mpg should I expect in regular hybrid mode (Normal) for 75 miles since that will be the maximum I drive 95% of the time. The other 5% I will be OK (but certainly not thrilled with 25 mpg). I suppose the answer would be roughly 37.5 since it would take 2 gallons of gas getting 25 mpg plus another 20 - 25 electric. 75/2=37.5 mpg. I get similar gas mileage as a Highlander with a much higher performance drive and, with shorter drives, the number is better. I already put a deposit on a PHEV due in June, I'm just trying to make myself feel better about it. With longer daily commutes the turbo 6 (with the same combined mpg) seems like a smarter choice but I have solar on my house so that first 20-25 EV mode range is essentially free. But damn do I love a turbo inline 6!From an architecture standpoint, it's my understanding that the CX-90 is actually more similar to the X5 than the Highlander. In most hybrid mainstream vehicles--including Toyota--the electric motor is able to apply power to the drive wheels more directly. In the case of the AWD systems in the Highlander, RAV4, and Sienna, the rear axle has its own electric motor going through a reduction gear instead of an entire transmission. On the other hand, with the CX-90 and BMW PHEVs, the electric motor is sandwiched between the ICE engine and the transmission. There are many dynamic benefits to this, but the negative side is that the transmission and driveline will compromise efficiency, regardless of which power source is active at the time (since the torque from both the electric motor and ICE engine has to go through the transmission to reach the drive wheels).
I've noticed this when switching from a pure EV (Mustang Mach E) to a BMW 530e RWD PHEV. The Mach E is far heavier (+600 pounds) and more powerful with two electric motors driving all four wheels versus the RWD for the 530e, but its mi/kwh efficiency is much better: 3.7 for the MME, 2.4-2.5 for the 530e (in EV mode) so far.
If I am going somewhere that will exceed my EV range in the 530e (which is 16 miles) and I know I won't be able to charge for the return trip, I tend to switch to regular hybrid mode instead of EV mode, letting the car decide which power source to use along the way. It heavily favors the electric motor in normal driving. Yes, I end up using some gas this way, but it's a miniscule amount compared to ICE for the entire trip.
If the CX-90 delivers mid 20s range, I would probably almost never use gas during daily commuting. I just hope I find one with the right seating arrangement and features at the right price. Very frustrating, how Mazda mixes, matches, and limits all that.
Really difficult to predict what anyone's mileage will be. Even if we had anyone with significant seat time in their own environment, the extent to which environmental and driving habits--not to mention climate control use--will affect mpg/range is all anyone's guess. What I can tell you though: after decades of suburban driving in the Miami area with lots of stop-and-go traffic averaging around 11-12 mph on a 10 mile drive, I consistently got less than the EPA city rating for nearly all of the ICE vehicles I had, but I exceeded the EPA rating on all of the electrified vehicles I had (HEV, BEV, and now PHEV). The delta for me was much greater in city driving, though I was still comfortably above the EPA highway rating as well.Maybe a better question for me to be asking is what mpg should I expect in regular hybrid mode (Normal) for 75 miles since that will be the maximum I drive 95% of the time. The other 5% I will be OK (but certainly not thrilled with 25 mpg). I suppose the answer would be roughly 37.5 since it would take 2 gallons of gas getting 25 mpg plus another 20 - 25 electric. 75/2=37.5 mpg. I get similar gas mileage as a Highlander with a much higher performance drive and, with shorter drives, the number is better. I already put a deposit on a PHEV due in June, I'm just trying to make myself feel better about it. With longer daily commutes the turbo 6 (with the same combined mpg) seems like a smarter choice but I have solar on my house so that first 20-25 EV mode range is essentially free. But damn do I love a turbo inline 6!
And in terms of your calculation, there may be some other factors at play that may work in your favor. In the BMW, when using the built in navigation for route guidance and using normal hybrid mode, the car apparently uses elevation changes and traffic conditions to predict when to optimally use the two power sources. I haven't had the car long enough to test the effect of this, but others in the community report that they end up with more total driven miles on battery when they take advantage of this. Maybe Mazda will implement similar functionality, if they haven't already.
A general consideration when it comes to mpg though, is that it is kind of a reciprocal measure that would be less misleading if it were inverted: gallons per mile (or gallons per 100 miles) instead. Once you get up into the 30 mpg range, it takes only a small variation in fuel consumption to change the mpg by +/- 10. The difference between 35 mpg and 45 mpg isn't going to be that material for most drivers in terms of annual fuel cost; the difference between 15 mpg and 20 mpg could be quite significant.
As far as being happy with a PHEV, here's a bit of perspective: the smoothness of EV acceleration has long been used as a hyperbole for describing the most lavish luxury ICE engines. It wasn't that long ago that European V12 cars were described as having "electric-like" smoothness. It's habit forming, and supremely relaxing and reassuring, in case that's your thing. Based on how refined and competent the 111 hp electric motor feels in the BMW, I have little doubt that the ~177hp motor in the CX-90 will be more than adequate--even surprisingly spry in short bursts--for normal driving. The i6 motor definitely has its appeal, but I don't think you'll regret the PHEV.
One thing you could do, if you wanted to have more of an EV experience: assuming your commute involves surface street -> highway -> surface street, you could start out in EV mode, flip it to normal or Sport for the highway, and then within the last few miles of the highway jaunt, if necessary, set it to charge/maintain mode. Then, drive the last surface street part in EV mode again. In this way, you would reap the benefit of electric propulsion where it makes the most difference, and let the ICE engine work on the highway, where it will hardly be noticed.
Thanks for the post. I hadn't really thought about the smoothness of the power delivery though I have several friends with Teslas and should have. If I am getting 30+ average I will likely just leave it in normal mode and let it decide what it thinks is best. If I am getting less than 25 I may try switching modes. I had several turbo sports cars 25-30 years ago (MR2, Gen 1 and 2 300ZX, and 3000 GT VR4) and LOVE the turbo surge. Modern turbos have less lag and less noticeable turbo surge and I am sure the CX-90 turbo I6 was designed to have feel more like a larger displacement engine than FI. I was really hoping for the turbo version of the 2.5 with the PHEV. Particularly because I live in CO where all naturally aspirated engine lose signficant power (and turbos don't). At least the electric engine also shares that advantage. Might be getting of subject but my point is it was hard to give up the turbo 6 in favor of the PHEV and was decided primarily on the idea it would get significantly better gas mileage and only lose a little performance. With ratings of 25 mpg combined for both I am a little disappointed but, if driving less than 25 miles daily and solely in EV mode (with solar panels charging it), I think the PHEV makes better sense for me.Really difficult to predict what anyone's mileage will be. Even if we had anyone with significant seat time in their own environment, the extent to which environmental and driving habits--not to mention climate control use--will affect mpg/range is all anyone's guess. What I can tell you though: after decades of suburban driving in the Miami area with lots of stop-and-go traffic averaging around 11-12 mph on a 10 mile drive, I consistently got less than the EPA city rating for nearly all of the ICE vehicles I had, but I exceeded the EPA rating on all of the electrified vehicles I had (HEV, BEV, and now PHEV). The delta for me was much greater in city driving, though I was still comfortably above the EPA highway rating as well.
And in terms of your calculation, there may be some other factors at play that may work in your favor. In the BMW, when using the built in navigation for route guidance and using normal hybrid mode, the car apparently uses elevation changes and traffic conditions to predict when to optimally use the two power sources. I haven't had the car long enough to test the effect of this, but others in the community report that they end up with more total driven miles on battery when they take advantage of this. Maybe Mazda will implement similar functionality, if they haven't already.
A general consideration when it comes to mpg though, is that it is kind of a reciprocal measure that would be less misleading if it were inverted: gallons per mile (or gallons per 100 miles) instead. Once you get up into the 30 mpg range, it takes only a small variation in fuel consumption to change the mpg by +/- 10. The difference between 35 mpg and 45 mpg isn't going to be that material for most drivers in terms of annual fuel cost; the difference between 15 mpg and 20 mpg could be quite significant.
As far as being happy with a PHEV, here's a bit of perspective: the smoothness of EV acceleration has long been used as a hyperbole for describing the most lavish luxury ICE engines. It wasn't that long ago that European V12 cars were described as having "electric-like" smoothness. It's habit forming, and supremely relaxing and reassuring, in case that's your thing. Based on how refined and competent the 111 hp electric motor feels in the BMW, I have little doubt that the ~177hp motor in the CX-90 will be more than adequate--even surprisingly spry in short bursts--for normal driving. The i6 motor definitely has its appeal, but I don't think you'll regret the PHEV.
One thing you could do, if you wanted to have more of an EV experience: assuming your commute involves surface street -> highway -> surface street, you could start out in EV mode, flip it to normal or Sport for the highway, and then within the last few miles of the highway jaunt, if necessary, set it to charge/maintain mode. Then, drive the last surface street part in EV mode again. In this way, you would reap the benefit of electric propulsion where it makes the most difference, and let the ICE engine work on the highway, where it will hardly be noticed.
Everyone's experience is going to differ, thus the phrase YMMV.Thanks for the post. I hadn't really thought about the smoothness of the power delivery though I have several friends with Teslas and should have. If I am getting 30+ average I will likely just leave it in normal mode and let it decide what it thinks is best. If I am getting less than 25 I may try switching modes. I had several turbo sports cars 25-30 years ago (MR2, Gen 1 and 2 300ZX, and 3000 GT VR4) and LOVE the turbo surge. Modern turbos have less lag and less noticeable turbo surge and I am sure the CX-90 turbo I6 was designed to have feel more like a larger displacement engine than FI. I was really hoping for the turbo version of the 2.5 with the PHEV. Particularly because I live in CO where all naturally aspirated engine lose signficant power (and turbos don't). At least the electric engine also shares that advantage. Might be getting of subject but my point is it was hard to give up the turbo 6 in favor of the PHEV and was decided primarily on the idea it would get significantly better gas mileage and only lose a little performance. With ratings of 25 mpg combined for both I am a little disappointed but, if driving less than 25 miles daily and solely in EV mode (with solar panels charging it), I think the PHEV makes better sense for me.
For reference or just entertainment, here's my experience with the 530e PHEV with a similar setup to the CX-90 (ICE engine -> electric motor -> 8 speed transmission). It weighs less, (4300 vs 5100), has a more powerful turbo ICE unit, a smaller and less powerful electric motor, smaller battery, and is RWD. So not apples-to-apples, but close enough to get an idea.
The official combined mpg is 28 (presumably standard hybrid mode), and mpge is 67 (some combination of ev driving followed by hybrid driving when the battery goes below a critical value). The official ev range is 16 miles, which is pretty much what I am getting.
The car is reporting 70mpg after about 350-400 miles. My daily commute is 20 miles round trip in mostly stop and go traffic--so no, I do not make the entire commute on battery. My errands are usually within a 5 mile radius, and I charge pretty much every time I reach home. I've done maybe 80 miles on the highway and goofed around with a WOT here and there, but mostly drive pretty casually. The gas needle is still above half on a 12.x gallon tank, so I've no reason to doubt the 70 mpg figure. And it's the dealer fill so it's probably not even high octane, which the car recommends.
Since the CX-90 has a more powerful electric motor, a bigger battery, and longer range, I expect to use almost no gas at all...if I end up getting one. I really wish I could get the base turbo S seating arrangement, parking sensors, folding/auto tilt mirrors, and the PHEV powertrain.
I think charging and driving habits are probably the biggest factors. Do you have a level 2 charger, or are you considering getting one? The CX-90 has relatively fast charging speed on level 2: 7.5kw, which is a big step up from the BMW PHEV's 3.7kw. That would make it pretty painless to top up each time you reach home.
Another thing worth mentioning. I've found hybrids and evs have a way changing driving style. I actually get a kick out of achieving high efficiency scores, and honestly, it's just as fun and satisfying as high performance numbers: accelerating, cornering. In my case, this was true even with the dual motor 400+ ft-lb EVs that I had.
Bottom line, I think there's a good chance you'll enjoy the PHEV, and it may surprise you if your expectations are somewhere around 25 mpg--provided you can keep it reasonably charged.
I am undecided about a Level 2 charger. Where I live its offpeak from 7pm til 1pm and that's 11 cents per kWh and I have solar and have been accumulating a pretty good credit every month (I purchased a system anticipating I would get at least a PHEV if not an EV). It should basically be free to charge it at home and I should have no problem getting a full charge over night. I am rarely going to come home after a drive and then leave again a few hours later so I don't see how a Level 2 would help me much. As I said, I have a PHEV scheduled to arrive June 6 so I will start getting real world experience in about 2 weeks. I am just going through a little pre-buyers remorse. I am just hoping the remorse ends June 6th. I usually have 4 or 5 cars and exchange one of them for something new every 3 or 4 years. The CX-90 is replacing my 2006 Acura MDX (the family car) that is getting around 17 mpg so it will be shocking if I am not impressed in every way conceivable. I haven't replaced the MDX because no new SUV seemed exceptional to me til this CX-90. Considered the Korean twins but not impressed with gas mileage and also the CX9 (I don't need a large or even larger mid size SUV) but not impresssed with its gas mileage either and have an issue with a 2023 vehicle with a 6 speed AT. The CX-90 addresses both of those issues plus, plus, plus. I am sure I will be happy.Everyone's experience is going to differ, thus the phrase YMMV.
For reference or just entertainment, here's my experience with the 530e PHEV with a similar setup to the CX-90 (ICE engine -> electric motor -> 8 speed transmission). It weighs less, (4300 vs 5100), has a more powerful turbo ICE unit, a smaller and less powerful electric motor, smaller battery, and is RWD. So not apples-to-apples, but close enough to get an idea.
The official combined mpg is 28 (presumably standard hybrid mode), and mpge is 67 (some combination of ev driving followed by hybrid driving when the battery goes below a critical value). The official ev range is 16 miles, which is pretty much what I am getting.
The car is reporting 70mpg after about 350-400 miles. My daily commute is 20 miles round trip in mostly stop and go traffic--so no, I do not make the entire commute on battery. My errands are usually within a 5 mile radius, and I charge pretty much every time I reach home. I've done maybe 80 miles on the highway and goofed around with a WOT here and there, but mostly drive pretty casually. The gas needle is still above half on a 12.x gallon tank, so I've no reason to doubt the 70 mpg figure. And it's the dealer fill so it's probably not even high octane, which the car recommends.
Since the CX-90 has a more powerful electric motor, a bigger battery, and longer range, I expect to use almost no gas at all...if I end up getting one. I really wish I could get the base turbo S seating arrangement, parking sensors, folding/auto tilt mirrors, and the PHEV powertrain.
I think charging and driving habits are probably the biggest factors. Do you have a level 2 charger, or are you considering getting one? The CX-90 has relatively fast charging speed on level 2: 7.5kw, which is a big step up from the BMW PHEV's 3.7kw. That would make it pretty painless to top up each time you reach home.
Another thing worth mentioning. I've found hybrids and evs have a way changing driving style. I actually get a kick out of achieving high efficiency scores, and honestly, it's just as fun and satisfying as high performance numbers: accelerating, cornering. In my case, this was true even with the dual motor 400+ ft-lb EVs that I had.
Bottom line, I think there's a good chance you'll enjoy the PHEV, and it may surprise you if your expectations are somewhere around 25 mpg--provided you can keep it reasonably charged.
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